dollanganger series – shipcestuous3

@mrsariayoureakiller:

It’s just really weird thinking that in the books Bart and
Cindy accept each other as siblings while in the movies they’re husband and
wife at the end. I was somewhat disappointed that we didn’t truly see the
reconciliation between them in the book when that relationship was so central
and important

I think we saw Bart and Cindy accept each other as siblings
in the movie too. Bart calls Cindy his “sister” during that scene in the
kitchen when he attempts to apologize for beating up her “boy toy”. While he’s
not being entirely honest in that scene – he says he beat the boyfriend up to
protect Cindy, obviously he was more motivated by jealousy and antagonism
towards her showing any sexuality, even though that’s not something he has
faced and it’s probably not something he realizes – I still think “sister” just
sort of slips out casually. It’s obviously a huge moment for Cindy to be
acknowledged by him as his sister in an intimate conversation like that, and
from the expression on her face she considers it a significant moment. It’s
followed by her hitting on him, which is why this is my favorite movie ever.
Also, when she implies that he was jealous, he basically says, “there’s too
much incest in this house already”, equivocating a sexual relationship between
him and Cindy to what is between Chris and Cathy.

Also, I feel like when Cindy runs into Bart’s arms when she
comes back after Chris has died, it’s sisterly. She’s not running into the arms
of the lover who is always there for her – Bart has never been that – she’s
running into the arms of her brother, someone who is experiencing the same loss
that she is – the loss of a father. And then they start making out, which is
why this is my favorite movie ever.

That being said, I agree. I always agree with any criticism
you make of the books, and particularly with this one. Bart and Cindy’s
relationship was central to Seeds of Yesterday (and extremely ambiguous), and
yet they reconcile off the page, so far from Cathy’s ken that she had no idea
it even happened until she saw them on TV getting along. Honestly, I found it
very strange. And my favorite explanation, my personal headcanon, is that their
reconciliation was at least somewhat romantic in nature and Andrews wanted to avoid
stating that explicitly. (Perhaps because she didn’t want to share what Cathy’s
thoughts on that would be, though most likely because she was trying to limit
the already plentiful amount of incest in the series). My other thought, which is
similar (and I believe we’ve speculated about it before, based on at least a
tiny amount of evidence), is that there was plans for a book after this one
which would focus on Bart and Cindy’s romantic relationship and their minor
reconciliation at the end of SOY was just so that Cathy could die in peace.

@mrsariayoureakiller:

And of course there are the obvious incest vibe Andrews set
between them but never truly went there. I actually like that the writers toned
down the redundant hatred going on between them in the book(one if the many
thing that make the movies superior than the books).Why do you think the
writers decided to have them end up together instead if following book canon.

I agree 100% that the cycles of hatred and lashing out
between Cindy and Bart in the book were redundant. The same things seemed to
happen over and over again without anything changing. The movie established the
same dynamic but in a much more sensible and palatable way. Of course partly
this was because Bart/Cindy was not only canon but endgame (literally married
endgame *squeeeeee*). But also it was because in the book it was just too much.

I call Bart/Cindy “ambiguous” in the book, but without the
movie to compare it to, I would probably call it canon, just not canon enough
to be satisfying. I think it’s just so weird that Andrews didn’t go there with
them. She already had Corrine/Chris Sr., and Cathy/Chris. She already had every
single one of Cathy’s f—ked up relationships in Petals on the Wind. Where did this
cowardice come from? Because you can’t tell me Andrews didn’t ship it. She
shipped the sh!t out of it. So that’s why I maintain my headcanon that she had
plans for another book where they happened in a big way, or she left us just
enough to assume that they got together eventually, maybe after they got their
acting and preaching ya-yas out. Obviously the movie peeps agreed, thank the
Force.

I think the movie peeps decided to have Bart and Cindy end
up together in the most unambiguous way possible because 1) they are at the
very least semi-intelligent beings, and could see for themselves that
Bart/Cindy was just crying out be legitimized, 2) the story makes more sense if
Bart and Cindy end up together, 3) they assumed that was Andrews’ intention,
like I do, 4) they thought back end of the series needed a new romance to keep
it poppin’, 5) #1 again.

Anon:

Something I find interesting about “If There Be
Thorns” was how when Cathy asked Bart why he hated Cindy so much and how
he should love her because she’s his sister(after he tries to drown her) Bart
yells out that no he shouldn’t and how brothers shouldn’t love their sisters.
And then he turns to Chris and is like, “Isn’t that right, Chris?” So
I think that’s part of why he was so mean to her. It’s pretty interesting
because Cindy was always attached to Bart as a kid.

I actually don’t think I’ve ever thought of it that way,
Anon! That’s such a great observation/interpretation I’ve always had this idea
in my head of Bart pushing Cindy away because he’s drawn towards her. But that’s
a much more conscious idea (in terms of what’s going on in Bart’s head) and I
think a stronger explanation. I guess I always just took that line as Bart
taking any opportunity he could get to roast Chris, something he just said
because it was clever/stinging in the moment, but if I think of it as a concept
that Bart has internalized, something he truly believes – don’t love your
sister, loving your sister is incest, loving your sister is dirty – then that’s
absolutely fascinating. He refuses to love Cindy as a sister, right from the
start, for fear of committing incest, or at least of having a love that’s
wrong.

And it can be seen from the other side too – any romantic
inclinations he feels towards her means he must push away any identifying of
her as a sister. I can see this constant conflict within him.

I definitely pretty clearly see that going on in Seeds of
Yesterday – his fear of becoming Chris/Cathy, the loathing of incest that has
been instilled in him – all of that causing him to react violently to the feelings
he has for Cindy. And If There Be Thorns establishes that complicated dynamic
between Bart and Cindy (even more so in the book, with Bart identifying Cindy
as a sinful woman at the age of 2….never change VCA). But if we consider that
line he says to Chris as being important – perhaps even supremely important –
it just ties everything together so well.

I had really always seen that line as being about
Chris/Cathy and Bart/Chris, but taking it also at face value – “I shouldn’t
love my sister Cindy” – then it opens up a lot, particularly if that was his
motivation for attacking Cindy.

I always felt that the reason it was so much easier for
Cindy to accept and fully embrace her romantic feelings for Bart was because
she knew Cathy and Chris were siblings but that didn’t matter to her because
they were her parents and she loved them. Plus, they brought her into their
home and took her in when she had no one else. I also feel like in the movies
her asking them questions and saying there was so much she didn’t know was her
trying to get them to tell her themselves.

That’s a really interesting theory. I’ve spent some time
wondering about when Cindy figured it out. My impression was that Cindy didn’t
know in that scene when she says to Cathy and Chris that there’s so much about
them that she didn’t know, but it could go either way. I do really like the
idea that she was trying to encourage them to come clean with her about that
secret, particularly the gentle way she goes about it. There’s that scene in
the kitchen that I mentioned above when he implies there’s already incest in
the house and Cindy doesn’t appear to understand what he’s referring to, but
again, that’s not conclusive evidence. With Bart dropping hints left and right,
I wouldn’t be surprised if Cindy had figured it out a long time ago.

In any case, I agree completely that Cindy is able to
approach her romantic/sexual feelings for Bart in a much healthier and simpler
way than Bart is able to approach his own feelings, not just because Bart
suffered from mental illness and was manipulated by John Amos/the crazy
ramblings of Malcolm, but also because Cindy viewed Chris and Cathy’s
relationship in an entirely different way.

I’ve always thought it was really important that Cindy
belonged to both Chris and Cathy in a way that Bart and Jory never did. They
were both her parents, and she wasn’t just raised in a household where this was
going, but this was the relationship between her parents. So I think she would
have a much more nuanced view towards their relationship and towards incest.
And if she had known it was an incestuous relationship for a long time, she would
have had plenty of time to get used to it in a way that Bart never could have
because of his messed-up prejudices. And, as you pointed out, even though she
probably doesn’t remember, she was a child without a home and they took her in
(at great risk to themselves). Bart can’t believe their kindness and their
love, but Cindy knows it to be true.

I’ve also always figured that Cindy grew up realizing she
felt an attraction towards Bart. That didn’t mean she liked him – it’s obvious
at the beginning of SOY that Cindy has given up on having a brother/sister
relationship with Bart and that he’ll never be warm towards her so she has
decided to defiantly give back what she gets. But at the beginning of SOY when
she seems him on the tennis court and says he looks hot, and that he used to
look like “an ugly little cretin”, I don’t believe her. She always wanted to
take a bit out of him. And growing up having some realization of that probably
eliminated most of her feelings of repulsion towards the idea of incest with
him. When Bart says, “We were meant for each other,” she says, “I’ve always
known that.” How long is always? I’ve assumed it pre-dates the beginning of the
movie for sure.

Thanks to you both for the great thoughts and discussion. I’m
sorry I took so long to respond, honestly it was sort of a “saving the best for
last” situation because there’s nothing I love more than talking about Bart and
Cindy.

I wonder about this too. I love wondering about it.

We see that he’s attracted to her right from the start of Seeds of Yesterday, when he messes up at tennis when he sees her. (Just one of my many favorite scenes.) In the book, he’s already shown some capacity for loving her because he has decorated her room just the way she likes (and she’s really touched and really impressed). In the movie there’s a similar scene with the gift he gives her, though that doesn’t happen until Christmas, which is significantly later.

Of course, he can’t admit that he’s in love with right up until the very end so that obscures things a lot.

I imagine that there wasn’t any particular moment that changed things. He disliked her right from the start – a strong dislike, a hate really – and so I think he was always thinking about her, was obsessed with her even, and he thought it was disapproval and rejection and hate but really it was love and so it was there all along and he just can’t recognize that until the end.

But I bet treating her as a sister, even thinking of her as a sister, was something that sort of snuck up on him and just took years of reinforcement.

@mrsariayoureakiller

shipcestuous3

Tag: dollanganger series

Bart/Cindy Asks

Have you gotten around to reading the new FITA books, the Christopher’s Diary ones? BC Man, do I need someone to bitch, whine, and complain about them to. I read the second one this last February and haven’t stopped seething yet.

Hey,I’ve been thinking about when exactly Bart fell in love with Cindy.I mean we know how much Cindy adored him as a child but he aways disliked her even before she was adopted so it is very interesting when the transition period happen.

That gif tho. He is so gentle about pushing her away and his hand lingers. feels